Jocko Podcast 494: This is What It Takes to Be Undeniable. With Cameron Hanes

Brief Summary

This Jocko Podcast episode features Cameron Hanes, discussing his new book "Undeniable: How to Reach the Top and Stay There." They discuss the concept of being undeniable through hard work and dedication, drawing from Hanes' experiences in bow hunting and insights from other high performers. The conversation explores themes of discipline, overcoming adversity, finding purpose, and the importance of continuous self-improvement.

• The essence of being undeniable is rooted in relentless hard work and dedication.
• Overcoming adversity and embracing discomfort are crucial for personal growth.
• Finding and cherishing one's purpose is essential for a fulfilling life.
• The importance of supporting and uplifting others, especially those who serve.

Introduction and Cameron Hanes' Journey

Jocko introduces Cameron Hanes, highlighting his success as a bow hunter and author. Hanes shares a story about prioritizing a bear hunt over podcast commitments, illustrating his dedication to his passions. He expresses gratitude for the opportunity to share lessons from his new book, "Undeniable," which captures insights from various high performers.

The Meaning of "Undeniable"

The title "Undeniable" was inspired by Joe Rogan, emphasizing the importance of working hard to the point where one's success is irrefutable. Hanes discusses how bow hunting uniquely rewards hard work, allowing individuals with average skills to achieve exceptional results through relentless effort. He contrasts this with other sports where natural talent often overshadows hard work. Growing up in a small town where hunting was valued provided him with ample field time, crucial for developing the instincts and knowledge necessary for success.

The Solitary Pursuit and Early Influences

Hanes reflects on his early hunting experiences, noting that he had no advantages in regular life compared to others with more resources or connections. However, in the mountains, his hard work and dedication leveled the playing field. He emphasizes the challenge of being alone in the mountains for extended periods, requiring mental fortitude and self-reliance. Hanes recounts his early years of bow hunting, highlighting his transition from casual participation to intense training and dedication after becoming a father.

Family Support and the Importance of Cheerleaders

Hanes shares how becoming a parent motivated him to abandon bad habits and strive for self-improvement, aiming to set a positive example for his children. He emphasizes the importance of nurturing children's talents and helping them reach their full potential. Both Jocko and Hanes underscore the significance of having a supportive spouse who understands and encourages their passions. Hanes mentions that his wife was very supportive of his hunting.

David Goggins and the Reality of Toughness

Hanes recounts a story involving David Goggins during a race, illustrating Goggins's unparalleled mental and physical toughness. He reflects on his initial doubts about Goggins's authenticity, which were quickly dispelled by Goggins's actions. Jocko shares anecdotes from his time working with Goggins, further highlighting his extraordinary commitment to suffering and pushing beyond limits.

Chris Williamson and the Mountain

Hanes discusses Chris Williamson's transformation from a "party boy" to a podcaster and fitness enthusiast. He describes taking Williamson through a challenging "lift, run, shoot" experience, including carrying a heavy rock up Mount Pisca. Hanes shares an anecdote about surfing with a friend, illustrating the idea that the most rewarding paths often involve hardship and discomfort.

Tanner Hanes and Military Skills

Hanes praises his son Tanner's exceptional rucking abilities and toughness, noting his military background and current work in construction. He highlights how skills learned in the military, such as navigation and attention to detail, translate to civilian jobs. Jocko emphasizes the value of military training in preparing individuals for stressful situations and instilling a strong work ethic.

Hunting Alone and the Feeling of Insignificance

Hanes recounts his early hunting experiences in the Eagle Cap Wilderness, emphasizing the solitude and challenges of venturing deep into remote areas. He describes a profound realization of his own insignificance in the face of nature, finding this awareness liberating. Jocko shares a similar sentiment from a book about the Vietnam War, highlighting the insignificance of individual lives amidst larger conflicts.

Coming Home and the Scorpion and the Frog

Jocko and Hanes discuss the challenges of returning from war and reintegrating into civilian life, noting the disconnect between the experiences of veterans and the concerns of everyday society. Hanes shares the fable of the scorpion and the frog to illustrate his acceptance of human nature, recognizing that people will often act according to their inherent tendencies. He emphasizes the importance of maintaining a healthy perspective and avoiding resentment towards those who have not experienced war.

Finding a New Mission and Applying Military Skills to Hunting

The conversation shifts to the challenges veterans face in finding purpose and mission after leaving the military. Hanes emphasizes the importance of finding a new mission, whether it be a job, family, sport, or education. He notes how bow hunting provided him with a renewed sense of purpose and direction. Jocko highlights how skills learned in the military, such as land navigation and attention to detail, can be applied to hunting and other civilian pursuits.

The 10K and the Doll Sheep

Hanes shares a story about quitting a 10K race early in his life, using it as an example of how early failures can be turned into motivation for future success. He emphasizes the importance of pushing oneself beyond comfort zones and avoiding the trap of settling for mediocrity. Hanes recounts a challenging doll sheep hunt in Alaska, where he made a bad shot on a ram after extensive preparation.

Crunch Time and Consistent Practice

Hanes emphasizes the importance of consistent practice in mastering crunch-time moments, drawing from his experiences in archery. He describes his daily shooting routine, emphasizing the need to make shooting a bow as natural as breathing. Hanes shares insights from world champion archer Levi Morgan, who uses hunting to prepare for tournaments by replicating the pressure and emotions of high-stakes situations.

Fear and the Importance of Training

Hanes discusses how fear can disrupt focus and performance, emphasizing the importance of anticipating and understanding one's fears. He draws parallels to military training, where individuals are gradually exposed to increasingly stressful situations to build resilience and composure. Jocko shares his experiences in the military, highlighting the importance of maintaining composure and making sound decisions under pressure.

The Power of Belief and the Importance of Humility

Hanes emphasizes the importance of maintaining a positive and confident mindset, especially in high-pressure situations. He shares an anecdote about a bear hunt, illustrating how animals can sense fear and insecurity. Jocko highlights the importance of humility and continuous learning, even for those at the top of their field.

Tunnel Vision and Big Picture Focus

Hanes discusses the importance of balancing tunnel vision focus with the ability to see the big picture, drawing from insights from neuroscientist Andrew Huberman. He emphasizes the need to be aware of changing conditions and potential threats while pursuing a goal. Hanes expresses his admiration for Huberman's intellect and his desire to have him experience hunting to gain a deeper understanding of its psychological aspects.

Consistent Themes and the Importance of Passion

Hanes identifies a consistent theme among high performers: a deep love and obsession with their craft. He emphasizes that passion is essential for putting in the work required to achieve exceptional results. Jocko highlights the importance of finding something one cares deeply about, as this passion will drive the necessary effort and dedication.

Truit Hanes and the Power of Confidence

Hanes shares stories about his son Truit's unwavering confidence and work ethic, highlighting his world record in pull-ups. He recounts Truit's experience in a last man standing race, emphasizing the mental toughness required to endure such events. Jocko notes the importance of maintaining a strong poker face and avoiding any display of weakness in competitive situations.

Courtney Dauwalter and the Pain Cave

Hanes discusses ultramarathon runner Courtney Dauwalter's incredible endurance and mental fortitude, highlighting her ability to push through extreme pain and discomfort. He describes her unique approach to managing pain, visualizing it as expanding a "pain cave" rather than simply enduring it. Hanes mentions enticing her to do the triple crown.

The Importance of Discipline and the Power of Sobriety

Hanes emphasizes the importance of discipline in achieving success, sharing stories of individuals who overcame addiction and adversity through dedication and hard work. He highlights Natalie Eva Marie's journey from alcoholism to sobriety and success in WWE, emphasizing the power of actionable steps and daily discipline. Hanes reflects on his own decision to quit drinking, recognizing its negative impact on his goals and aspirations.

Michael Waddell and Betting on Yourself

Hanes shares a quote from Michael Waddell, emphasizing the importance of betting on oneself and believing in one's abilities. He notes that every outlier he has met has consistently bet on themselves throughout their lives. Hanes reflects on his early interactions with Kip Fulks at Under Armour, noting their initial friction and eventual friendship.

Aaron Rodgers and Ego Death

Hanes shares a quote from Aaron Rodgers, discussing the importance of ego death in achieving personal growth and learning. He notes that Rodgers is uniquely qualified to speak on the topic, given his experience with criticism and scrutiny as a professional athlete. Hanes emphasizes the need to be able to focus but also step back and see what else is going on.

Michael Chandler and the Permission to Win

Hanes shares insights from UFC fighter Michael Chandler, emphasizing the importance of giving oneself permission to win. He recounts Chandler's near-victory against Charles Oliveira, highlighting the fine line between success and failure in high-stakes competition. Hanes draws parallels to his own experiences in bow hunting, emphasizing the need to do everything right to achieve one's goals.

Katie Knight and the Hardworking Mentality

Hanes shares a quote from ultramarathon runner Katie Knight, emphasizing the importance of hard work and dedication. He recounts taking Knight on her first deer hunt, noting her mixed emotions after killing the animal. Hanes emphasizes the importance of being a merciful bow hunter and respecting the animals they hunt.

Cowboy Cerrone and the Importance of Having Fun

Hanes shares insights from UFC fighter Donald "Cowboy" Cerrone, emphasizing the importance of having fun and maintaining a strong work ethic. He notes that Cerrone approaches having fun as a sport, highlighting his relentless energy and enthusiasm. Jocko draws parallels to other high performers, emphasizing the importance of enjoying the process and maintaining a positive attitude.

Joe Rogan and the Path to Success

Hanes shares a quote from Joe Rogan, emphasizing the idea that success in one area can lead to success in all things. He notes that Rogan's success is a result of his relentless hard work and dedication across multiple disciplines. Jocko highlights Rogan's exceptional work ethic, noting his commitment to podcasting, comedy, and physical training.

Evan Hafer and the Passion for Coffee

Hanes shares the story of Evan Hafer, the founder of Black Rifle Coffee Company, emphasizing his passion for coffee and his dedication to creating a high-quality product. He notes that Hafer's passion and attention to detail are key to his success. Jocko highlights the importance of finding something one is passionate about, as this passion will drive the necessary effort and dedication.

Remy Warren and the Importance of Role Models

Hanes shares that Remy Warren was inspired by his book "Backcountry Bow Hunting".

Dakota Meyer and the Ability to Stay in Suffering

Hanes shares insights from Medal of Honor recipient Dakota Meyer, emphasizing the importance of resiliency and the ability to stay in suffering to learn more of the lesson. He notes Meyer's extraordinary courage and selflessness, highlighting his repeated acts of heroism. Jocko emphasizes the importance of embracing discomfort and pushing beyond limits to achieve personal growth.

The Last Chapter: Make the Most Impact

Hanes discusses the final chapter of his book, emphasizing the importance of finding and embracing one's purpose. He shares insights on how to find, embrace, share, love, and cherish one's purpose. Hanes concludes the book with a call to action, urging readers to identify their purpose and dedicate themselves to achieving it.

Closing Remarks and Final Thoughts

Jocko and Hanes reflect on the themes discussed throughout the episode, emphasizing the importance of hard work, dedication, and finding purpose. They thank their listeners and encourage them to pursue their passions and make a positive impact on the world. Jocko promotes various products and organizations, including Jocko Fuel, Origin USA, and charities supporting veterans and first responders.